Getting Paid For Your Work: The Debate Over Working for Free

1. Hello!: [MUSIC] [LAUGHTER] Center yourself. Are you an artist tired of being asked to collaborate for free? Or do you feel irritated with family and friends who want you to whip something together? Or are you simply unsure how to handle requests for unpaid work? We are here to help [LAUGHTER]. I'm Cathy. I'm Jennifer. I'm Haley. We make up Jennifer Nelson Artist agency. Since 2015, we've been representing some of the best artists in the world. Our clients include anthropology, Fjallraven, Godiva, Scholastic, eeBoo, and more. We've also helped hundreds of artists with everything, from learning business basics to expanding their creativity and their portfolios. Now we are thrilled to share our knowledge with you. Today's class is for any working artist, whether just starting out or well-established. Today, we're going be talking about getting paid for your work; the debate over working for free. At JNA we filled a steady stream of requests for free work, from movies hoping to feature a painting to clients promising exposure for a commission, we've handled at all. We have handled a lot. Together, we will discuss ways people may try to convince you to give away work, help you determine what to do when this happens, and create a solid plan for dealing with these requests. For our class project, you'll create a template for communicating with potential clients, as well as a boundary statement, which will help with decision-making. By the end of this class, not only will you have a solid plan for dealing with requests, but also better communication skills for working with clients. Let's get started. We'll see you in the next lesson where we'll talk about the class project. Bye. 2. Class Project: For our class project, we will work together to create a plan for dealing with requests to work for free. The only equipment you need is something to write with and a willing spirit. Using the boundary statement worksheet in the resources section, you will answer specific questions to identify free projects that you'd be willing to consider. Using those answers, you'll create your own boundary statement, which will be a few sentences long. The boundary statement will capture the projects you might consider, and projects you want to say no to. Using it when you receive a request can help you stay loyal to yourself and your goals as a professional artist. Next, we will fill out the "say no" worksheet. I don't know why I did that. For this task, we'll use a special method called the sandwich technique, which you'll learn about later. With this technique, you'll put together a boilerplate, no, thank you, response that declines a project while remaining professional and kind. The text can then be used as a template for emails, DMs, or even a script to remember for conversations. In fact, a template is one of our favorite tools for communication at the agency. They're great because they help you avoid snap decisions, clearly state what you want, and are extremely efficient. We would love to see your completed project in the section for coursework so we can give you feedback and learn from each other. Also, throughout the course, we invite you to engage in the discussion section. As with any class, one of the best ways to learn and enjoy yourself is by participating. We invite you to post your thoughts and ideas, to share with others, and start juicy conversation. The more interaction, the more the class will feel like a community, a space where creative solutions can blossom. To start, we'd love for you to introduce yourself in the discussion section. Let us know a little about yourself. Feel free to share your site, the kind of work you love, your favorite medium, I'm very interested in that, where you are in your art journey, and why you're taking this course. We are so excited to learn more about you and to see the tools you create. Now it's time to talk about those tempting proposals that pop into your inbox all the time. See you there. 3. The Three Seductions: [MUSIC] [NOISE] I would on your right side, use one [inaudible] . [MUSIC] Tell me about a time when someone asks for free work. We were all delighted. I remember squealing audibly and Kathy was giggling around and I started to ask the questions about what was the compensation. What were they able to offer to the artist? They said that they didn't have any money for it. A lot of time they come through Instagram. They DM, the artists and then the artists will refer them to us. When I wrote back to them and said, this is our pricing structure, they were like, Oh, usually we don't have to pay for that. [NOISE] When it comes to working for free, companies and people alike will try to tell you, somehow it's a good deal for both of you. They may pressure you or try to convince you that they are helping you with their offer. Add to that, the fact that many emerging professional artists really want to have their work seen and might jump at the idea of some publicity. Or that saying no isn't always the easiest thing to do. You've got a lot of people making money off of artists who aren't making any money at all. [NOISE]. It drives me crazy. [MUSIC]. To me, the tricky part about these requests, especially if you're an artist just starting out or a solo entrepreneur, is that it can be hard to navigate. Not only is there the question of whether or not to do the work, but there is often the great pressure to say yes. [NOISE] This pressure to say yes is something artists constantly come up against. From requests for free work to accepting clients prices and schedules. The desire to avoid disappointing a potential client and feel like you are making progress as a professional artist can prevent you from even considering saying no, when an opportunity comes in. [NOISE] We said noted that job, but I feel like if I had been the artist that was asked the same I'd said yes. [NOISE] Those times when you say yes, you can end up feeling like you've been fooled or done something wrong. Often long after you've said yes, we get that. Realizing you might be getting taken advantage of is tricky, especially if you're less than confident about your abilities. But remember, the fact that someone has asked for your art means it's valuable. [MUSIC] It also has value because you've put your time and your passion into it. For some, artwork is like a little piece of their hearts. Even if that piece isn't, even if it's something that you think is maybe silly or it was easy to make, it has value because it took your time, your expertise to create it. We want to give you permission right now to charge money for your work [NOISE] and to pass on opportunities that are lacking. In fact, saying no could be good for you and the community at large. After all, the less artists say yes to free work, the less likely companies would be to ask for it. [NOISE] At the agency, we, don't suggest the artists give away their work even for free publicity. It's not good for the artists. It's not good for the artists community because then all of a sudden you have a lot of people who think they can ask for free work from artists and expect to get it. In all of this, it's bad for the business, for the company or the client to receive work for free. I know that seems crazy, but a business can't really show a proper profit and loss if they don't have expenses. It also diminishes the value of your work. Then what happens is they don't really appreciate the artwork, which in turn ends up with them not appreciating the artist and it's just not acceptable to me for that to happen. It's not good. That's something I really don't want to be part of. [NOISE] Commonly, a potential client approaches us or one of our artists about working for free. There are three different arguments they use. Let's call them seductions. It sounds more sassy. Oh boy, [LAUGHTER] here we go. Okay. There are three seductions that they use. Some clients may only employ one of these, but others will hit you with all three. They are flattery, promotion and charity. For the start of your project, [MUSIC] we'd love to hear about times when you've been asked to do free work. How did the person contact you? What were they requesting and what was their reasoning behind the request? Can you identify which of the three selections they used? Don't worry if you can't. We're going to go through each one in the following lessons. Identifying and sharing these moments with others will help you to see the many ways people might try to convince you to give your art away. We'll also help you just to see how inappropriate these requests can be. To get the ball rolling, Kathy and I will both post our experiences with this. Now, to demonstrate the three seductions, let me introduce Pamela and Gillian. [NOISE] I'm Pamela and I'm working to establish my organizing business. I post before and after pictures on Instagram every day and I have over 1,000 followers. One of my signature skills is re-purposing clutter to make it functional. I'm Gillian, I run a daycare in my home. Things get pretty intense at the daycare and we really need someone to help us organize. But I don't have a budget for that. [NOISE] 4. Flattery is Not Funds: Hi, Pamela. You don't know me, but I've been following your Instagram page for years. I just love those before and after pictures. You really have an amazing knack for up-cycling. I live in the next town over, I love your work so much. I have a pretty exciting opportunity for you. Hi, Jillian, thanks so much. It is so great to hear that. Your Instagram page is so sweet, and I've actually heard of your day care, which is weird because I don't have kids. Tell me about this opportunity. I'd be happy to. Your work is so great that I thought we could have you come here to redo the daycare. We have a ton of empty egg cartons. I was thinking you could do one of your amazing up-cycled plant walls? You saw the plant wall project? That was one of my favorites. I would be very interested in working with you. Can you tell me about how many rooms you want organized so I can give you a quote? This is wonderful, the thing is, the daycare really can't afford to pay for any organizing, but we need it so desperately. Since I know you are just starting out, I was thinking we might both benefit. We can keep the projects small, just a couple of rooms. I can tell by your amazing feat, that the step comes to you so easily. What I'm thinking will probably take less than a day. When a person approaches you about giving work to them or commissioning a piece, it is just like this scenario. The idea that Pamela would organize someone's business for free is crazy. That insanity isn't any different when someone wants to use your art for free. Even though for some reason people don't seem to always get that. I chose that scene as a way to really illustrate like how ridiculous the question is because I think for some reason people think there's a difference and I don't really understand why that's the case. I don't understand that either. I think that part of it may be that the market is really flooded, right? Yeah. And that there's so many artists who are working and artists are going to make art anyway, and there may be unfortunately a devaluation. When Jillian approached Pamela, Pamela was excited to hear how much Jillian loved her organizing skills. Her initial jolt of excitement that somebody wanted to work with her was really valid. It's a fundamental need for an artist to seek approval, just like anyone else. I think sometimes artists, we feel more keenly because our work is personal and let's face it, the competition to get your art in front of potential clients is pretty tough. I also think like one of the things we hear people say when they talk to you as this like, "Oh, it looks like so much fun. It must be so fun to be an artist," which it is sometimes, but it's not it's work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's years of study, it's years of practice. I think it's so important because a lot of times people who are talented, and things come naturally to them, they don't think it's special, and so you take this natural inclination that you have as a human being to devalue what comes easy. Then you add in all the time and the effort you put into becoming an artist, so that eventually it does come really easily to you even to do amazing things that were outside of your skill range. What happens all of a sudden is you think, "Oh, this is so easy that I can whip something up", people say that and it's like you can just put this together and it's like offensive, but at the same time, I think there's actually that thought in there. Did I ever tell you the, have you heard the little story about Picasso? No. He was sitting around with a group of people and he made a little drawing on a napkin in a restaurant. One of the people there said, "Oh my gosh, can I have this?" And he said, "Oh, no, no, I won't give my work away for free." I'm imagining what he said. The person was like, "Why? It just took you a few minutes," and he said, "so what would the cost be?" And Picasso said it to be $50,000. The person was like, "But it just took just a couple second," then he goes, yeah", but you're not paying for those couple of seconds. You're paying for my expertise." Yeah. You're paying for where I am in my career now. I feel like that's pretty pointed. Absolutely, it is. When you get a request for your work unpaid or not, celebrate it, jump up and down, tell your closest friends, let that energy flow through you like the lovely thing it is. Take a moment, celebrate that, enjoy that, maybe pour a nice cup of tea or whatever your version of celebrating is, that is valuable. What they mean, like taking the time to really savor that feeling, and try to separate the celebration from the decision because I think a lot of times we push them together, so the celebration and the decision come hand in hand. It's a yes, and you say, yes. Yeah, I think. It's like, yeah. Then the next morning you wake up and you're like, "Oh, no." It's so important to take that moment and really feel the happiness that that kind of acknowledgment brings. Then take a moment and reflect, and take one or two business days, slow it down to respond. If you give yourself some time, you'll respond more thoughtfully. When you reply to the client, be equally complementary to that person. Thank them for reaching out to you and their interest in your work, no matter what decision you are going to make. It feels wonderful to be flattered, and someone flattering you about your work even when you really need that boost in your spirits, does not entitle the person to anything more than a thank you. One thing you can start doing right now to help you avoid the flattery trap is to actually practice saying, thank you when you're flattered and not offering anything more in return. Don't deflect the praise by downplaying it and don't try to go above and beyond, just say thank you. You might be surprised at how difficult it can be. Cathy, that's a really great idea. Thank you. 5. The Problem with Publicity: That's really flattering, and I appreciate your consideration of my time, but I'm not taking on unpaid work. I'm thinking about what you said and I completely understand. I've given it some thought and here's my idea. You can reorganize and upcycle the daycare and I will get your name out there. I'll post before and after pictures on my Instagram. When any parents come by, I will point out the amazing work you did. We will even keep your business cards in the entrance. You will get more clients just by working for a couple of hours. You set yourself at the daycare is very popular in the community. Everyone knows who we are. Wow, I really like your ideas and your enthusiasm, Julian. However, I am declining any unpaid work. Thank you for considering me know. Sorry if I wasn't clear. We couldn't pay you in cash, but we can pay you with publicity. I just have to get this out. Publicity and money are not the same thing at all. Tell me about it. As an artist, publicity can feel like absolutely everything. Which of the three seductions would be the most seduced by? So provocative. I suppose the one for me would be this idea of promotion. I think, I want to say charity because it's like the nice thing to say but I think it would be promotion. The idea of having your work out there with your name on it can be so tempting. The thought if only people could see my work because they would love it can seduce you into doing work you would otherwise not even consider. It's such a hard thing because I can absolutely see the lore of publicity when you want to get out there in front of people and you want your art to be seen and the idea that a company wants to work with you and put your art on their products, it seems amazing, right? It completely does. Then sometimes you can even be hit with the argument that, well, other artists have done it. Oh, God. Yeah. They may name off people that you really admire to encourage you to do so. That's so true. I know. Remember though, publicity doesn't pay the rent. It doesn't even pay for the [inaudible] groceries. Plus a lot of companies that don't pay for products don't have the reach to give you actual publicity. They're looking for your art to give them publicity. If you really think about it, if they have a product, maybe it's a really beautiful tin can container, but they don't have artwork to go on it, the product's not going to sell. Yeah. That seems highly unlikely that a major card company, a lifestyle brand, or an established book publisher will ask you to work for free. You would want to look at what kind of a reach does this company have? If they are, like we said, a small letterpress company, they may have just a few thousand followers and distribute maybe three or 400 items, that's not going to give you huge reach. However, if the World Wildlife Foundation was looking for a project, very likely that that would go well, and your reach could be huge there. Also, if they want you to work on spec, that typically means you will be directed by someone that is not an art director. Which means the process could be difficult and you might not be creating your own art. One of the problems that you can run into is that your art direction doesn't actually match your aesthetic or your thinking, or it doesn't reflect you as an artist. The piece of art they'll be using to give you publicity may not be something you actually want to represent to. Here's why what I just said is actually pretty important. There's an old adage about the three qualities of creative work. Essentially, the idea is that you can have two of these three qualities in a project. You can have fast, you can have cheap, or you can have good. Work can be fast and cheap, but not good. Or it can be good and fast, but not cheap, or cheap and good, but in no way fast. In this scenario, you're being asked to work for free. We're going to remove money that is not part of the equation. You want the work to be great, not just good. Considering this, fast is not really an option. If you want to move ahead with the project, you're going to need parameters. Still, sometimes you may wonder if the opportunity is too good to pass on. Based on these facts, it is very important when considering a job in return for publicity or any job for that matter, to research the company you'll be working with, and to get more details about the project before you agree. Remember to look at the company's reach and the products that they make. When talking to the company, some of the most important questions you can ask are, can they guarantee your work will be used if it is a commission? If so, will you be allowed to create what you want? If you're a art directed, who and how many people will be directing you? There's a lot to consider. The more art directors in the commission, the more difficult the process can be. If you do your research and still aren't sure whether or not to say yes or no, we'll talk more about basing a decision on this research later in the course. Next, we're going to cover another tricky seduction, which is charity. 6. Giving Back or Giving Away?: [MUSIC] Hi, Pamela, just checking him see when we can schedule you to work your magic in the daycare. I'm not sure if you consider that you won't only be getting publicity for your work, but you would be supporting a good cause. We have over 30 children at the daycare, and some of them are on scholarship. Studies have shown how much children thrive in a well-organized, creative environment. You'd be giving these kids that much more chance to become successful adults. While I do my best to provide that, it's nothing like what I know what you can do. You'd really be getting back. In fact, I bet you could claim it on your taxes. As amazing as you've really made this sound, I'm afraid I still have to pass. The job is not a good fit. If you have funding for your project in the future, please reach out again. I would welcome an opportunity to work with you. Until then, best of luck with the daycare. I thought she would do it. Maybe I can find somebody else who will. Here we are. Final seduction, Jennifer. [NOISE] The time has come. [LAUGHTER] The final seduction is the idea that you'll be giving back by giving away your art for free. When our artists decide that they will work for free, I feel like it's when it's for a company or organization in which they believe. Absolutely. That actually can weigh into the decision-making. Totally. If it's important to you, it makes sense that you would want to contribute. We donate. I guess that what I'm saying is we donate to organizations, we give our money to them. Giving art isn't that different from that. No, essentially, it's not. It can do a lot of good. Like we've talked about in other scenarios. Artwork often makes the whole difference in a product or a campaign or everything. They're organizations that ask you to donate your work. But then there are companies that asked you to donate your work. I've heard so many companies say their budget isn't big enough, so they can't afford to pay the artist. Other companies will be giving a percentage of the money they make to an important cause like the environment or perhaps a human rights issue. Jennifer? Yeah. Did I just hear you say that the company will be giving a percentage money to a charity, off the money they make from their product. I did. You're telling me that you are going to be using an artist's artwork, which essentially will make the product sellable. Making money off that work with enough to spare for charity, but they won't pay the artist? Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. In this case, they're asking you to do the work for the company for free so that they can make a donation. They may very well get credit for that donation or maybe not. But they are using your work as part of their contribution. To me, that feels out of whack. Even if the organization or company isn't making my off your artwork, you might still want to say no. Yeah of course, because it is still working without any pay. I would like people to know that we have worked with organizations that are fabulous and done amazing work with them, and we got paid for it. We feel proud. The other thing is that you can come to a compromise on the fee. You don't have to charge your entire fee. No matter what, free, not free, or in-between free and paid, I think it's really important to set boundaries around the project. That's what that boundary statement will help them. Even at this point, you could be unsure how to proceed. This is where using the boundaries statement, which we'll be creating in the informed decision lesson will come in handy. 7. An Informed Decision: So now that we've covered all that information, we are finally approaching an informed decision about how to handle these requests. Although getting paid for your work is our top priority, knowing what you know, you still may be on the fence about how to respond to the client's request. For us at the agency, our goal is really to make sure that they understand what they're getting into, what they're doing, and so we treat it just like a regular license, and we get all the details upfront, and then the artist can decide from there. We've put together a form to help you make the decision easier. These questions we ask will help you determine when, and if, you want to say yes to an unpaid project. This way, you can easily identify and set boundaries around what you aren't willing to do before the inevitable DM comes your way. Follow the directions on the form, answering each question. After that, you will create your own boundary statement, which captures the projects you might want to consider. In the form, we have put a star next to a few questions that we strongly recommend requiring for a yes. They are the ability to retain all copyrights for a project, a guarantee of manufacturing, being able to publicize the work, and being credited for the work on the product or image you've made. These terms are extremely important if you're not being paid for your work because they ensure that your name will get out there and that you can license the piece elsewhere, which would in turn give you a chance of profiting from your work in the future. The boundary statement can be your guiding light when you receive requests to work for free. Even if you are really excited about, or flattered by a request, following this statement will keep you true to yourself and your goals. You'll be less inclined to compromise on what you are truly comfortable doing. It's also a handy guide to getting more information about a project, paid or not. Let's get those forms filled out and statements written. I bet you can guess what my boundaries statement will be. No. Show me yours. 8. How to Say No: [MUSIC] I've been holding back so much talking about these deductions. I'm completely, totally committed to artists being paid for their work. It's a too much to ask? As the agent, I'm always advocating for payment, and I'm like, "Show me the money." [NOISE] Jennifer says, "Show me the money, " a lot. She's a huge Jerry Maguire fan [LAUGHTER]. Tell me about Jerry Maguire. I don't know. I don't understand, Cathy is always bringing up Jerry Maguire, she thinks that I really I'm in love with him or something. I saw the movie twice, but still I don't have anything about Jerry Maguire. Now that you've set your boundaries, how on earth would you say no to this project? [LAUGHTER] One of our favorite ways to handle any request is to have a well-drafted reply at the ready. I use pre-drafted email signatures. I use email templates. I also put Stephan to notes too, which is different from Jennifer, but still the same general idea. Templates are really your friends [LAUGHTER]. They make responding to client so easy and fast. I used to struggle at saying no or giving bad news in the email. Hitting the send button would make me feel like I was jumping into ice-cold water. But then I started using templates and I learned about the sandwich technique. What is this sandwich technique? [LAUGHTER] I am so glad you ask. Starting out with a slice of positive, [NOISE] stuff it with some of what might be considered negative [MUSIC] and then end by flapping on another piece of positive [MUSIC]. For example, "Dear Roy, I looked at your site in those glow in the dark, dark colors are truly inventive. I am flattered you asked me to create a logo for it. I would love to take on this job. I'm flattered you asked me to create the logo. However, I do not work without compensation. The typical price for project like this is $1,000. Please be in touch when you are able to commit funds. As a dog owner, these collars appeared to me very much, and I would enjoy this project, sincerely Cathy." Perfect. I know isn't hilarious, it's simple, and it's to the point. She started with a positive. She sandwiched it with the negative, and she finished with the positive, and how they could work together in the future. Cathy invited the client to reach onto her when he had funds available. Very smart. You never know when your paths may across again, someday they may be in a position to pay for artwork. They will remember your professional demeanor and think of you fondly. Even if the request seems a bit insulting, we make a point to always respond politely. Let's put together a template using the sandwich technique. Find a template form in the project section of the class and fill it out. From there, you've got your template to use in emails, social media, or even conversations. You'll notice Jennifer's and mine are a bit different. It's the spicy mustard of life. [NOISE] Next up, let's talk about how to say yes. [BACKGROUND] 9. The Right Way to Say Yes: [MUSIC] Think of a time when saying yes to everyone ended well. Yeah, I can. There was a commission that one of our artists got for, it was a website, they got art website, and they commissioned this really beautiful piece. I think she was able to pick what she wanted to do within this range. She's still had a lot of control over the project, and the piece she made was actually lovely. The reason it worked out so well was not only was it on this site which made her feel good, but it also ended up licensing like two or three other places. From that commission, she ended up making a good amount of money elsewhere. You've used your boundary statement , and given yourself, a business day or two to moreover the proposition, and you've decided to say yes. Where we live, they can't just get started right away. No muss, no fuss. I don't know. Kathy, [LAUGHTER] did you forget how we say yes at the agency? [LAUGHTER] Oh my God, so gross[MUSIC] If saying this is easy, you're doing it wrong. [LAUGHTER] We need to talk about the right way to do unpaid work. Essentially, even if you're not being paid, you need to treat these projects like a job. You want to establish all the same terms that you would for a paying job. You can keep the rights to the art and possibly derive income from it elsewhere. Exactly. You'll find a worksheet on this very topic in the class project section. You'll want to determine the use, the territory, the length of the license, and find out if the client needs an exclusive. If it's a commission, you'll want to pin down right away a specific definition of what the deliverable is, then be sure to write out an agreed-upon workflow that includes a specific number of revisions and what happens at each revision. Then you want to schedule that is tied to actual dates. Keeping two things separate will help you realize when things are getting off schedule due to a delay in the workflow, and you can call the client's attention to it. Yes. You want to identify in advance what to do if a client runs behind schedule or scope creep sets in. Create an outline for yourself and review it with the client. For example, at the agency, we often stipulate if there's a delay in feedback, the artists will have a certain additional amount of time to make the changes. When this happens, we also contact the client and recreate the schedule and change the due dates at that phase of the project. Then send a comprehensive PDF with all this information to the client for confirmation and keep a copy of it for yourself too. We've included a handy confirmation template that you can use in the resource section. Saying yes isn't as easy as just saying yes. But saying yes is the way that will protect you and your artwork. Onto the next section. 10. What About Your Friends (and Family)?: I'd like to touch on one bit that's often delicate, a little dicey. Okay. You know, friends and family. They get wind of your business and they want to support you. They love you and they share your enthusiasm and they may face you with the obstacle of a tattoo or even the dreaded I have an idea for a children's book proposition. Oh yeah. These requests require serious navigation. Requests from family and friends need to be handled with care, grace, and boundaries. I've seen several artists in our community bring up this very question. It can be so hard to say no. They can guilt-trip you. They could minimize the amount of time and expertise it takes to create a piece. They might even complain to your parents. They'll glare you over the Thanksgiving table. But if you don't want to do it, you have got to say no. Put the kibosh on these kinds of requests before they become a common practice. It may be difficult and it might create some family drama but in the end, it is you protecting yourself and your work. Just tell them, "Thanks for the offer. I am a professional artist aunt Sally, and I expect to be paid for my work, even if you are my mom's favorite sister. Thanks a lot. Let me know if you get some cash and I'll consider it if I have time." What? Really? I used the sandwich technique. Personally, I would take a different path. I would say something like, "I'm touched that you like my work so much. Thank you. I'm not taking on any unpaid work, but here are lots of resources where people can hire talented illustrators." Then send them a link to illustrators for hire site or society of children's book writers and illustrators that will inform them about professional best practices and even pricing. God that's brilliant. You're so good at that. Thank you. 11. Thank you!: Now, I think we've covered everything. Me too. If you've stuck with us through this class, we want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts. If you didn't, there's obviously no point to us thanking you because you won't even see it. We hope this course has been helpful to you and shed some light on why working for free under really exciting circumstances may not be the best choice. As well as how to get the best result for yourself and your clients. If you decide to move forward with an unpaid project, you'll be ready to set those realistic expectations and boundaries that we've laid out together. If you like this course and conversing with your fellow artists, we invite you to keep the conversation going. Visit our advice for artists page for a link to our online community. It's a positive group of professional artists who support each other, offer advice, and share their own stories. There you can also find out more information about the group, and other services that we offer. Including an awesome newsletter. It's really awesome. Get a pencil, our URL is a doozy. It's jennifer-nelson-artist.com/advice-for-artists. Don't expect any courses from us on short URLs. Until the next class. Thanks and have a fantastic day.