Creative Logo Making: Design with Triangles | Peter Bone | Skillshare

Creative Logo Making: Design with Triangles

Peter Bone, Designer, Author, Teacher

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7 Lessons (43m)
    • 1. Welcome

      1:51
    • 2. Essential Skills Before You Start

      2:46
    • 3. Strokes, Fills, Paths, Aligning

      7:46
    • 4. Cutting, Stroke Options, Outlining, Pathfinder

      14:44
    • 5. Transformations

      8:37
    • 6. Using Compound Paths

      7:00
    • 7. Goodbye and Project

      0:28

About This Class

When it comes to designing logos, less is more. In this short class you'll learn to use Illustrator to create  beautiful logos quickly and accurately, simply black and white triangles. Restricting the elements you use will help develop your creative thinking, so your creative confidence will grow alongside your Illustrator skills. 

Transcripts

1. Welcome: I'm Peter Bone. I'm a designer, writer and teacher. As a design, I believe firmly in the principle of less is more. I love the simplicity of geometric shapes and use them often in my work. When I'm teaching students how to use illustrator, often new simple shapes. As a starting point is, it could be a quick and easy way into creating something that looks good. A couple years ago, when I was writing a book about designing logos, I wanted a way to convey the essence of the thought process I go through when I'm exploring ideas. I wanted to convey how the constraints that you often get when working with a client can open up your creativity rather than close it down. So I restricted the elements that I would allow myself to use and to cut a long story short , I ended up writing a book. I hadn't planned to write about creating logos with circles, and I enjoyed writing that so much that I followed it up with one about using rounded rectangles and then one about triangles. This course is similarly it designed to help you develop creative ideas. At the same time, teaching how to work creatively with Adobe illustrator. So it's perfect for anyone who wants to do one or the other or both. You can see here the logos that I'm gonna demonstrate on this course. If when you look at them you can see easily a way of creating them quickly and accurately just using triangles, then you won't learn that much from this course. On the other hand, if that's just what you'd like to be able to do, then you're in the right place. The project that goes alongside this course is to create your own logo that simply uses black and or white triangles. You may have ideas now. You may think of ideas as we go along, but you'll get far more from this course if you use the skills you've been taught. So do sketch out any ideas you have now or work on them as we go, either on paper using illustrator. Then I'll give you further instructions towards the end of the course 2. Essential Skills Before You Start: If you're already familiar with illustrator, you can probably skip this video. We're just gonna look a zooming in, zooming out, creating new documents on creating multiple our ports. So if you know those things, you can move on to the next video. So if you are new toe illustrator, I'll be working through a series of different documents with several logos and each. Essentially I'll be creating one logo and and then deleting it and then moving on. So as you do that yourself, it basically got two options. You can either do a series of individual documents by doing file new, so you can see this is just the default, a four size document that would be absolutely fine. State press. OK, and then you could work on that. And then, if you want to keep what you've done, you can do file and safe, so you can either do a series of documents, save each one separately, or you could just move the logo to finish ones to the side or whatever you want to do. So that's one option. The other option is to create a new document, but that uses multiple art boards. So we're doing 12 or 13 logos here so you could type in tow over 13 here on. Then. When you press, OK, you'll see you get a SYRIZA is like a series of different pages. They're not strictly pages, but lots of different things. You can work out at the same time in the same document. Now, certainly, if you're doing this, you will need to know a bit about zooming in and zooming out. So one option is to use your zoom tool. We consider click on that zooms you in notice. The plus in milliband. Hold on the or key changes to minor. Say consume out. You can use a hand tool to scroll the screen round. Better, though. Keyboard shortcut command plus on the Mac Zemin. Come on, Minus does him out. That's control plus control minus on the PC or better still, in the view menu. You could do fit our boarding window or the keyboard shortcut for that, his command zero or control zero on the PC. And as you might have noticed, a swell fit all in window command zero or control Zira, that takes you back so you can see them all. So I would suggest that using a combination of control, zero control or zero possibly control plus or minus that will give you what you need so you can work any way you like, so long as you're comfortable, So let's move on. 3. Strokes, Fills, Paths, Aligning: So let's start by creating a simple triangle the two will use is the polygon tool hidden under the rectangle tool. Now, when you click once a dialogue pops up, I've just done this. So the sides there will be three. Likely for you. The size will be six. Change out to three. I'm gonna go for a radius of 40 millimeters so you can see this nice and clearly so you can see the three anchor points that make up the triangle shape on you completely. Not quite. See the black stroke that's around the edge. So let's increase the way to the stroke. So we do that over here in this stroke panel. So by default, you just see a little slim panel here to click on this button. Here we can make that bigger. So I changed that to a 40 point stroke, and there we go. That starts to look a little bit like that one to make it look more like that one. We just increase the white so you might notice that as we make the weight thicker, it grows both inside and outside. Thea, where the where the path is that, sir, This blue line here and these buttons here unable you toe adjust that. So the stroke going entirely on the inside, entirely on the outside, or somewhere in between the two. Okay, so that's so that's the 1st 1 Just a simple triangle. The only difference between that and the 2nd 1 is that the corners around it on you've got the option here, the round join. Okay, So instead of a mighty join, you've got around joint. Okay, For the 3rd 1 I'll show you another way of creating a triangle, which is to still use the polygon tool. But click and drag now because I've previously credit triangle. It remembers that number of sides where the likelihood is, if you haven't done this before, you'll end up with something like this. So as you're dragging you drag out, would you can make the the shape bigger or smaller, But he kept the mouse down, feel toe, press down the up arrow on your keyboard. You add aside if you press the down arrow you reduce aside, so keep going down until you've got just the three sites. The chance of you line that up accurately are fairly slim, so What you want to do is press down on the shift key and then leave that key down. What else do you let go? The mouse. So I'll do that now. So there's my triangle has got the same properties as the last one. We've got a thick black stroke on the outside. On the center is is white, but that's technically called the Phil. So I want to change. That, said, the film is black on the stroke doesn't exist, so the one that's gonna change is the one in front here. So that's the white film. So change that two black by going to the swatches panel and clicking on Black. I'll then bring the stroke to the front, and then if, after several different ways I could apply the num color, I can do it here. I can do it here or I can do in swatches. So either way, it's now got no stroke, but it's got filled with black. So the difference between what I've got on the one down here is that mine simply has three uncle points. Okay, so want to just move that down a bit so you can see it more clearly 23. Or is this one? Let's go on extra one. Now it's got an extra one, and it's got handles on it. So that means it's a curved point. These Airil corner points. It's simply straight lines. So I want to add a curve point here, so I make sure my triangle is selected and then choose my Pento. I'm gonna choose the at anchor point to If I click carefully on the edge of the path Now you might see this is I zoom in, says Par fair in Green. That's the smart guide telling me that I am indeed lined up on the edge of the path. So when I click ones, there's my uncle Point. So that's a corner and appoint like all the other ones to change it. I'm gonna use the uncle point to previously called The Convert and appoint all before Sisi . When I click on that and drawing outwards, it adds these pair of Handel's. As you can see, they work in tandem so I can do all sorts of things. With that, I commit a shorter I could make it longer, but whatever I do, they work of a pair So I'm gonna do something like that. I want that guy. There's my slightly less triangular logo. Kind of get rid of that one. Okay, so finally, I'll create an initial triangle. So as you can see, that has a black fill and no stroke. I'm gonna make a copy of that one. Flip it round, Onda, uh, give a black stroke with no Phil. So the way I'm going to do that is hold down the okay using my selection tool, by the way. So, normally, when you try something with selections all it's simply moves your shape, Hold down the or key. You might notice the curse of changes to black and white. That means you've now got two different objects on, then to rotate that round. One way of doing that is by double clicking on the rotate tool that I couldn't specify my angle. So in this case, it's gonna be 180 degrees that will rotate that round. Now, if you're not sure about your angles, you just simply press preview. That looks great. So change the colors in a second, but tow line it up. You should find that if you just drag it. The green smart guide will help you line up. Sometimes you might want to be more precise on that. But for now, that'll that will get us going. Okay, said every game it's that lined up nicely. So now that wants to change from having a black Phil and no stroke to the opposite. And these were to do that is to press this little button here, swap Phil and stroke, so that doesn't look very exciting. But we nevertheless have a black stroke. We just need to make that bit thicker. So, as you can see as I am that yes, it is getting thicker. But of course, it's nothing to the outside is what is the inside. And that's again because it says a line stroked to center. What I want is to align stroke to the inside and there we go. Actually, I'm gonna just so like that. I hate it when designers get a perfectionist on you, it's a bit more like it 4. Cutting, Stroke Options, Outlining, Pathfinder: So before we look at creating this set of triangles together, if you will not need to illustrate it, if you've got a few illustrative skills, it might be worth he just thinking how you might approach these on duh. See how you can combine the skills that you've got Teoh to create those before I show you how I've done them. Okay. Said to create the 1st 1 again gonna crater. Put it on the same way we have time. Just move it slight with the selection tool. So in the cc version of Illustrator, if I go to the direct selection tool much assuming for you you see these little circles Andi thes are used toe as roundness to the anchor points So you could see I could very easily have done one of the previous legs like that. I'm gonna just do commands it. Undo that. What's it gonna seen back out again? So if I could do that to just these two points and not that one, I'll get the logo below, so that's exactly what I will do. So I'm gonna click on that anchor point notices blue, as opposed to that on which is white on that one, which is white. So that's the only one that selected. Hold down the shift key. Click on that one as well that both selected said, I can drag that little circle and just to just those two complaints. Okay, so that's hike under inversion CC. The way you might do it in previous versions is to split it. So it's not actually one path, but to on the way you do. That is by using the scissors tool that I've previously useless use this so it's there. But normally it's hidden under the A razor to I just might make the fill color none there. Okay, so with scissors told you, click on an existing at a point like that if you were gonna try, click on this one. But if I just missed it slightly, get that warning dialog box saying that you basically missed it and give it another go. So try that again if you need to. So now I've got two distinct path on this one. I'm going to add instead of from a But cap, I'm gonna give it around, cap. So press that button. And then when I was in back out again. You will see that it's got that rounded. NOUs is also got fun. A little bit of sort of screen deputy on their If I just zoom in slightly, which I'm gonna do using command plus B control Plus on the PC, you'll see that once it reaches the screen, it's fine. So two ways of doing the same thing If we look in outline mode, you see, one key difference is that this one this, um, the SS two distinct objects. But it hasn't actually changed the anchor points. Where is this one? They've actually changed. I was gonna say permanently change. Um, that's not quite true because we can going and select those and we can still work with those. So that's already counting your feature CC. Okay, so this next one is going to be similar. I've used the This is his tool to break that into three. I've simply added arrow hits. Now, I'm not just reduce the strike. Quite a little bit of that nice keyboard shortcut actually here. If you wanna increase rather than having to use the little arrows there, put your cursor inside Pretty much any dialogue box and just use your up arrow well down. All right. Okay. I trust him like that. So much is is to click this time in the center of all of those lines, and then I'm gonna select all of them. So I'm gonna click away with my selection tool drag over all three like that, and then I'm going to use one of these arrowheads. Now, if you're using a really old version of illustrate, you won't have these. But that came along in Owen about CS four or something. Now, the scale here needs to be round about 10 or 20%. So I'm gonna just change that number like that. Okay, So, actually, to extend the shortcut I just told you about, you can use the up arrow or the down arrow. You can also hold down the shift key and then jumped 10% at a time. Again. That works through most dialogue boxes in illustrator, also in in design and very often in Photoshopped to so that's that one. I'm also going to use the call in a joint like lap to make the corners not miter, but around. So that guy, that's that one now, 3rd 1 again. If we looking outline mode, it looks like something similar is going on. So if you know a bit about illustrator, maybe just pulls a video for second and have a think about how you might apply skills, you know? Okay, let's do that one. Okay. So I think I'm gonna go back to just a straightforward shaped like that I'm gonna use This is total again. Break this into three straight lines on a slightly strange thing that was happening there is because the white Phil that's getting on top of some of this. So whilst I might want the white feel, actually, right now, I'm gonna just make that none. I didn't explain that. That's what I was doing out here. So what I'm doing here to change these lines from just ordinary straight lines to the kind of bowed lines like these is another reasonably new feature in Illustrator in the strike paddle called The Strict Profile. I'm gonna change it from the uniform one to this one here, and you can see it does call an elegant thing that it gives the stroke a subtle off center so I can control that. Make that federal thinner. Just using the up and down arrows to get the result that I want. Very simple, but really, really effective. The fourth logo looks at first glance quite a lot more complicated on the previous ones, but it really isn't. Um what I'm gonna dio is take select days and take the profile back down. Not I'm gonna change the end caps. Remember these. These are now three open path, as they're called. So they're, like, three straight lines and give him that round cap on. Gonna make that strike quite a bit thicker. Yeah, I should do. I think now I'm gonna make a copy of this over here. So a lovely feature. An illustrated Quite all one now, but but useful. Under object and path, you got the ability to outline a stroke. If I do that, let's have a look. It is compared these to triangles in out my night. So you can see that this one You got this stroke on all the round. This is being done in the strike panel. Where is this one? Actually, this there's no stroke anymore. The stroke has been I just make a copy of that. You can see it's actually been turned into, like, a Phil object. I can see actually looking quite gone as far as I meant to with that. So I'm gonna just under and increase the strike. Quite the 80. That's much more like it. Okay. So again, object path and outlined stroke. Okay, so this is almost there. But what I want for each of these strokes rather tohave Sorry. With each of these fills we got from the three filled shapes that just a copy of it say consent. They've currently got a black fill and no stroke. I wanted to the other way around. So again, I'm gonna make use of this little button here, swap Pavillon stroke, and you can see now that they've got thin black stroke and no feel so as I increase the stroke Wait, you can see I've got something like the logo that I want create. So this one is still an object. A work, if you like being done on the stroke panel. Now, that's become a completely different shape. Really? Okay. Scared of those gonna gonna just copy this one so we can refer to that So you might be seeing a similarity between the one we've got here and the final one on, uh, again, you might want to just, you know, illustrator and particularly might want to think about how you might do that. If you don't, you might just be thinking about which bits of this we could retained to create this shape . And I'm sure you can see that it's thes little areas here. So currently we got all these different overlapping paths, and we want to kind of cut them out from each other. So the way you did this in illustrators use a physical Pathfinder. So in the window menu will choose Pathfinder. Another load of options here, and the one that's generally the most useful is divide because it allows you to have. When multiple path overlap, you can cut them out of here. We've got several piles over the top of each other, so if I choose divide, so at first glance it appears like nothing's happened. And if I try and select some bits, actually it appears like nothing has moved. But the clue that something is happening is that is the word group there. So in the course of you doing certain things in illustrator, including the Pathfinder commands. Normally what happens is illustrated group what you've got if it needs to, and that's what is done here. So what I need to do now is to get inside the group to get rid of the bits I don't want. So just a couple of ways of doing that. One way that you might be familiar with is double clicking on the shape notice. The rest of the screen has a zgray doubt. Now that means I can get access toe any objects I want like this to select them on, delete them, so that would certainly work. I'm gonna press escape, though, to get out of that. That's the way you get out of what's called isolation mode. I'm doing that because I much prefer this way, which is to use the group selection tool, which is hidden under the direct selection to, and you can click on one shape at a time and just delete, so I'm gonna click home. Well, the shapes here now outline murders you've seen previously is quite handy here. It shows me that I've got rid of those shapes, but this still triangle in the middle. So actually, if you were kind of playing with this, you might think, actually, I might use that. But for now, I'm not going to use that. So I'm gonna get rid of that. So I've got my three shapes here gonna tournament to those. So, of course I need toe select a mall and again reverse their fills and strokes. And now I just need to move. So they're line. So I want to try moving with the selection tool again. It's saying their group, so that's that's not particularly helpful. So again, I would use the group selection to, and I'm hoping that the smart guys will help me a line accurately. You might notice if you're very egalite, that if you zoom in here, there's a few little extra shapes being left behind when the shapes comes out from each other. So I'm gonna just dry ground lives and delete them. If you can't spot those again, outline load is useful for that. I suspect if I was to move this not the way. Yep, some there as well. So it's a really good way of cleaning up stuff. Okay, Something with eso when that's the final. Others logos 5. Transformations: you might notice that these triangles we're working with here a different from the ones we've been working with previously. No, I'm reliably informed that these air called. I saw Seles right triangles, but whether that's true or not effectively, you might notice that these are half a square. So let's look at how we do that. Use the rectangle to click and drag. Keeping the shift key held down to create a perfect square and then used the delete, I could point to hidden underneath the pen to delete one of the anchor points. Then, as you can see, you got your triangle to make sure before you rotate it to make sure that the whole thing rotates, you need to make sure the whole shape is selected rather than just that single anchor point . That's an easy mistake to make. And then let's flip the Phil and Stroke colors that that white is probably about right. But just if you want to check how big you want the gap to be, you might just choose a different color. Yeah, it looks pretty good, all right, so earlier we used the retitled on with Double clicked and we were able to specify an angle on it went around the point of origin. That's fine as far as it goes. But a more accurate way of doing it very often is to specify the exact point of origin. And the exact angle on the way to do that is you choose the right eight to hold down the old key and click just once on whichever anchor point you want. And you can see that if I rotate it 45 degrees. That's pretty much what I want. But rather than just rotating it, I want a copy. So I compress the copy button, and that's exactly what I can. Of course, I could repeat that, but a quick away is to go object, transform transform again, and that repeats the exact last transformation. And it remembers the point of origin, so that is a quick way of doing the same thing again. Even Quick Away is to use the keyboard shortcut, which, in this case on the Mac is command D. But I'll be controlled the on the PC. So if I just commanded a few more times, you can see we get the local that we want, okay, So that's how we work with that one. I'm not gonna just keep this one and remove the others. Hopefully, as we do in this kind of getting a sense of how we're just playing with shapes, just seeing what happens. And, uh, so we're gonna make use of this, Gonna just flip the colors over, and I wanna make another copy of this. I'm picking up carefully by its anchor point on notice. When I do that, we got two things. Firstly, the word anchor appears, and secondly, the little white Square that is shown next to the cursor. So both of those things tell me that I'm picking up from an uncle point. So today it's really quickly hold on the or key and just drag directly onto another anchor point that should say intersect. It should also give you a double white cursor to tell you that that is gonna align perfectly. Do the same thing again, pick it up from the anchor point, hold down the okay line up perfectly, So that's kind of half the shape you want. But actually, if we could get like a reflected copy of that, so that bit goes there And that goes there, That bigger is there. That would give us everything we want. Nice and quickly. So to select all the shapes, and then we're going to use the reflect tool which is under here. Now, you might notice that the moment I choose that the point of origin is dead center, which is exactly what we want anyway, So we don't need to hold down the Yorkie. We could just double click, and then we just have to choose the right option here. And in fact, neither of those is the right option. So let me just remind myself of the option that we do want. I can't said that minus 45. That's gonna work. Said press copy. That looks great. Except for you might notice the where all those miter joins me. It all looks a bit strange there. So we'll go to strike panel. I will apply corner points on maybe increased the straight way, Hobart. In fact, I did that without making sure they're all selected, so that really didn't work very well. So, um, corner and then whichever straight. Wait, we want something like that. Okay, Right. So next up is not too dissimilar. We're gonna be going back to our traditional triangle shape. We want a black fill on a white stroke, maybe a slightly center stroke, and I'm going toe reflect. But this time from the bottom point of origin. So I will hold down the okay. I don't want to reflect that. That's why I like that. Create a copy. Every ghost we got like a pair of those. I'm gonna select them both. Now you might spot. I'm gonna rotate that round. So it's like we got two of those were gonna make a way around the middle that so again with my protect tool. So these are all transformation to. Also they will have in common is you can use these tricks. You can use command D or control D. You can hold down the or K to specify the point of origin and so on. So with that, now with it 45 degrees last time. Obviously, I'm telling you the numbers you want to put in. But to get more creative here, what you can do if we if we count this one of the bottom, you can see it. You want the total of one, 23456 different rotations there 66 copies. So what you can do if you're whether there are 360 degrees in a circle, you can proceed forward slash cle That doesn't divide. So we can say 360 divided by six because six is a total number that we want. So you could pretty work that out using a calculator or in your head, or use Google or whatever. But Illustrated will do it for you so you can see that's gonna give me what I want. That's really useful as you start to increase the number of copies and things you want so again are pressing Copy. And then I'm going to just do the shortcut for transform again. So that's in this case command day. And then we end up with a very nice looking logo. Well, it was like I know I'm not sure, but it's a it's a nice thing. Okay, now, this is fine on having this white stroke is is perfect whilst for on a white background. But of course, if we're on a background, that was a different Kerala, So I'm gonna just send this thing to the back. You noticed that, of course, all that that becomes very obvious. So sometimes what you want is to actually get rid of these gaps. It's not straightforward, but kind of make your logo. So it worked anywhere. Eso you can put it on the top of anything on not worry about in this case, a white line. I'll show you how we do that. 6. Using Compound Paths: So this final leg is much more complicated than anything else we've seen so far. And you can see that there's a gap here that is a genuine gap have opposed to this one here , which is effectively using the same colors, is the background to sometimes if you're doing a professional logo, then you want it to be a logo on against any background. So if you want to do that, you'll need to learn about this kind of technique if you want a consistent gap. Okay, so first off, this is Ah, rectangle. Just give up that the foot black there, Onda, uh, cut the corals. Can it skip it? Color stroke that we can see so red? I think it's gonna be a so another way of changing the colors. And the strokes, by the way, is up here you get a limited access toe. Certain features like that up here in relatively modern versions of illustrator not to do the surrounded nous. Yes, there are a variety of ways you can do it, and you've seen some, but one that's useful. Sometimes it's a bit of an old feature now, but it's useful occasionally on this is an instance. Where is useful is effect style eyes on around corners around the corners, but because it's an effect effectively, What that means is the appearances that it's round. But if we look at it in outline mode, you can see that. Actually, those anchor points haven't changed. Now you might wonder why that's useful. The reason that is useful is that when you want to align objects much easier to align them when they've got anchor points about this, so that's the next step here. So going into outline mode, I can select my shape. I can use the rotator, too. Well, I can hold down the okey on. Uh, that's gonna be perfect 45 degrees copying around the bottom anchor point and then command e. Okay, so that's fine. But you can see that these need tow line up in a slightly different way and again because we can select these anchor points. We can align that up far more easily than we could if they were actually circular. You can see when I'm playing with us, you might have other ideas about what you might do with shapes like there's plenty of possibilities here. you can see I'm going for something a little bit like Tamerlan's. Okay, so that's a look at that in preview mode. Quite a good in Freedom Road. But there we go. That's that's not better. So really, what I want to keep of the black sections on, I want the red sections to disappear. Now, of course, you know that we could change those to make them white on debt would sort of work, but really, we want to delete them now. If I was to just select, um, and make the stroke none. Then all that does is it takes the stroke off, and the sort of fullness of the shape comes back. So that really doesn't work. What we want to do, then to be able to do that, is to make those strokes rial objects. And we did that earlier when we went object path on outline stroke. So we did that on one of the earlier logos. So it's a bit of, ah, obscure command, this one, but but really useful in this kind of circumstance. So I'm gonna do that. Outline the strokes on, uh, zoom in for you, So this isn't pretty, but we've got effectively three shapes. So the initial triangle, that's what we're gonna get rid off. Slightly counterintuitive, but and, uh, eulogies. Here's the group selection toe, so if you delete those first of all, so I click on one at a time, delete. You seem in a bit. Look at an outline mode now notice. When I select either of these, it says Compound Path said a compound path you might think of. Let's say the letter O is a compound path because compound path is defined by the inside and the outside of the shape. So you got what defined the inside you got, what to find the outside and what I want. Teoh is effectively keep the inside and get rid of the outside, okay? And that's effectively made my shape smaller and gives me the camp that I want. So again, it's easier in outline mode. You just click on one of these outside shapes at the time so you can see that we're gonna end up with the gap that's giving us the gap that we wanted. So finally, when we go back to preview mode, you can see that's exactly as we wanted it But clearly the color is wrong so that we just select all the shapes. Change the color back toe black again and I haven't mentioned before. But of course, in the C six and C. C. It always pops up with color when it thinks you want to do it, which is fine if you're working in black and white. If you're working with specific colors, my suggestion is to use watches. So my habit is just just go back and do it that way. But with black and white makes no difference. So there we go. So that is a ah, a degree more complex. But you can see what we've ended up with. This something with a ah proper gap behind it. And we've made use of outline mode. We've made use of the outline path out, and you've got a little bit of an insight as well into a compound path. So complete look a whole variety of logos created with triangles 7. Goodbye and Project: So now you've explored all the illustrated techniques. It's time for you to apply what you've learned. Feel free to go in any direction you want to, but limit yourself to creating a logo that simply uses black and or white triangles at the end of June 2015. Or pick my three favorite projects and each of you will win the paperback version of my triangles circles on rounded rectangles books. I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with.