Interview for Insight: User Research for UX and Service Design | Pontus Wärnestål | Skillshare

Interview for Insight: User Research for UX and Service Design

Pontus Wärnestål, Service Designer

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9 Lessons (39m)
    • 1. Introduction

      3:06
    • 2. Insight-driven research

      5:47
    • 3. What should we talk about?

      7:10
    • 4. Planning your interview

      6:19
    • 5. The interview guide

      2:27
    • 6. Project: Set up an interview guide

      2:11
    • 7. Tips for the field

      6:50
    • 8. Analyzing the results

      2:49
    • 9. Next steps

      2:00

About This Class

User research is critical for creating great products and services. One fundamental technique in user research is interviewing. However, a lot of people assume interviewing is the same as just having a chat about what people want from a service. Unfortunately, this is not the case. In this class, you will learn professional techniques and tools that will enable you to plan, conduct and analyze interviews to give you insights that you can use to build great products and services that fit the needs and goals for your users as well as your organization or company.

Transcripts

1. Introduction: you know too much. What do I mean by that? So let's say you're a designer of a mobile app. You have a deep technical understanding of the logic behind the app. You know, all of the apse air estates, Exactly how to get from the sign up screen to the shopping cart, for example. And that sounds great, right? You know all about the APP. But unfortunately, there now too much of an expert to understand what the user experience is for the majority off your ups and users because they're not asking that that kind of questions that you are , and they don't think about the up in the same way as you are as an expert. That means that if you don't carefully take those end users into consideration, you will most likely end up building a product that Onley satisfy a small subset of your end users. Those users that are more like you and they're very few. So is knowledge about thing then? No, not at all. In fact, I'm here to tell you that in a way, because you know too much about the domain and the product, you need to learn even more but about your audience, the users of your product or service. My name is Pontus. I'm service in UX Designer with two decades of experience, user centered design and from a wide range of sectors and branches. So in this course will be learning about user research in particular. Interviewing we do interviews in order to get qualitative, deep insights about the attitudes, skills, needs and goals of the people that are using our products and services. The key skills you will learn in this class are what qualitative deep inside interviews are how to plan and perform interviews, how to analyze and communicate the results. You also get a set of practical tips for success in the field. This class is created for designers and user researchers who are starting out in research and want to quickly get the basic skills in interviewing down. Interviewing skills are applicable in just about any project where you want to learn about how people are using and experiencing an existing product or setting a user senator framework for a future product or service. The project will consist of planning and setting up in the interview guide for product or service. I provide an example domain for you to work with. But you can also apply this two year old existing product or service if you want to. Well, first talk about what inside driven research and inside interviews are and then about the process for setting up and plan your interviews. This includes setting up an interview guide, which is your roadmap for the actual interview and then tips for performing. And then we have a section on tips and tricks for how to get the best results when you're actually out in the field interviewing. And finally we'll finish off with how to analyze and communicate what you've learned in order to use your insights to build better products. 2. Insight-driven research: now research is a big word and can mean a lot of different things. User research is also pretty big category, and it's important to know your way around the research methods that you are applying. Why? Because some efforts are better than others in addressing the particular problem you're wrestling with. For example, if you want to compare two design concepts and very Fife, one design performs better than the other. In terms of, say, speed, then that's probably a quantitative evaluation that would require a precise set of measurements run over two different user groups that you can compare. And then you will do that with enough people so that you can achieve statistical, significant results. You want some truth and be able to confidently claim that this truth is valid. That kind of research would be very useful when you have two competing concepts and you're fairly sure about what your product or service will do or let your users achieve. But that's not the kind of research we're focusing on in this course in this course, were interested in the kinds of quantitative research that allow us to gain a deeper insight includes to a different users. Attitudes, goals and behaviors are like and what that could mean for the design direction off a product or service. A lot of digital systems are very hard to use and don't allow us to do the things the way we would like and that kind of increase our stress levels and lead to worse results for your organization. Business managers, product owners and designers and developers are all striving to build better products for the same users. Presumably, yet they often fail, end up, end up launching services with bad usability and a bad user experience. So why is this? A lot of times is because of lack of insights. So from now on, we're focusing on inside driven research to give you a hint about the different types of research available to you into position What we're doing in this class. Take a look at this model interviewing in the sense that we're talking about here falls in the user center field of practice. Interviewing is part of applied ethnography and contextual inquiry, and it is a flexible research method, and that's why it can be stretched either to amore expert mindset or to a more participatory mindset. If you were to introduce generative, participatory design or even design probes into your into use, it would be a hybrid approach that would cover an even larger area stretching both towards research led and towards design led research. If you want to learn more about this toolbox, you can read Maurin Steve Particles book interview users from Roosevelt. There's also a big difference between quantitative and qualitative research. The first difference is recording what kinds of questions you can answer with these methods in quantitative research urine exploration mode. You're interested in the wise in quantitative research. You're more interested in hard facts, so to speak, how long something takes how many users exits a Web page or where they tend to click gets era. But quantitative research doesn't tell you why they decided to leave the page or click on that particular body. Maybe the page didn't provide information. They're required. So they left frustrated with their goal on fulfilled or the page was super informative and clear, so they left happy and satisfied with their visit. The second difference is the number of respondents, because qualitative research favors depth over sample size. The data you get is not suitable for statistical analysis is that we do deep analysis of a fewer number of samples. This data is sometimes referred to as rich or deep data. In my experience, about 8 to 10 respondents are usually good balance between resource spending and gain. For most commercial projects, it's impossible to know beforehand home and respondents are acquired. Since you are looking for what is known as saturation in quantitative analysis. That means that when you don't hear mawr new things from your respondents, your material has reached a high level of saturation. This is very different from quantitative research, where you know beforehand how many responses you need in order to arrive at statistical significant truth. In qualitative analysis, we don't aim for truths in that sense, were interested in getting insight and a deep understanding about what is driving human behavior. Therefore, I expect to tweak my interview questions along the way so that I'm prob probably not asking the same questions in interview Number 10 that I did in the first interview but will return to this later on. So to summarize quantitative research data such as statistics, web, traffic analysis and service can improve the reliability of your research. Quantitative research is based on a large number of data points, such as the survey among hundreds of people. Qualitative research date. On the other hand, such as deep interviews, quotes, video clips and observations and richest, the experience insights and improves the credibility and level of insight of your research . Okay, so now you should have a grasp on what kind of research tool the inside driven interview is and what it can be used for. Let's dive into more detail and go through some rules for interviewing. 3. What should we talk about?: So let's get into the details about inside interviews. First of all, it's a method, not a social chat. You need to plan, and you need both skill and experience to perform effective and efficient interviews. You will get the basic skills in this course and the experience you'll get by practicing. Interviewing is almost like an art form. There is a lot of soft, silent and interpersonal skills involved in performing a good interview. Actually, the most important skill is listening, and the most important mindset is learning not just asking questions. That's the first common misconception about this kinds of interviews. You're not asking a list of questions. Rather, you are facilitating and probing to try to get your participant or dialogue partner to keep telling you stories so that you can learn. You do this by having a plan. And that's not the same thing as a detailed list of questions. If you need to list one particular question, it should probably be the question. Why is that kind of like a five year old who's constantly asking why, But you need to do this in a more subtle way so that you're not obnoxious about it. a flexible plan for interviewing instead of her rigor is a list of exact questions is called a semi formal interview were open ended. Interview is not completely free flowing. You need a rough road map for the interview, but it's flexible enough to allow you to go where the respondent takes you. But with an explorer to mindset, that's when you uncover things that you didn't expect or didn't know and gives you clues to new things you can continue to ask to your next respondents. So what should we talk about in an interview? You might be tempted to discuss preferences and specific questions about the product or service you're working on. That seems very intuitive, right? I call this narcissistic interviewing people really care as much about your products as you think that you think they are. Furthermore, they're often quite bad at evaluating product specifications, features and suggestions. If you just tell them about it. So what's the point of interviewing them That while instead of preference, it's about your product idea? Try to focus on what people are great at, and you know very little about their stories, their philosophy, behaviors and experiences. You do this by employing a few tricks in your interviews. The 1st 1 is open questions. So maybe you've learned the six journalist questions. Who, what, when, where, how and why. That's what I'm talking about here, instead of asking, for example, do usually log into the service when you get home from work, you could ask, Tell me about what you did after work yesterday. So there are two things to notice in the difference between those questions. The 1st 1 is but not focusing on the product or service and not framing it as yes, no questions. You get richer input, and you don't miss the opportunity to find out whether the product plays a role in the respondent life or not. The second thing is also very important. Did you notice that the first question asked the respondent to generalize? I said something like, Do you usually log in when you get home from work? This unconsciously make the respondent tell you sort of ah perceived average day, which is almost always wrong anyway. And people tend to skip what they think is not important when they generalize. But in reality those quirky special cases, like yesterday, instead of usually can be of grand interest. So instead, by pinpointing an exact anecdote such as yesterday rather than usually, you increase the chances of finding out something new and interesting. And then you can follow up with questions like, Okay, so does this happen often? Or is that what you usually do if you want? However, what if you feel you don't get anything useful out of the answer? Well, there are two things to think about that, for one, what ends up being interesting for you is actually showing in the analysis. Later on, you'll develop a feel for what's important as you get more experience. But sometimes seemingly irrelevant things will end up playing a bigger role than you thought were being instructive when you put it together with other interviews. Contents. Secondly, you might have a change. You might have to change your question a little bit. Instead of asking about a specific time, such as yesterday in the example, I just used you could ask about the last time you used the product, for example, this will still make them talk about specific anecdotes and not generalize. As you can imagine, it's important to recruit participants that have used the service you're interested in, or being part of a phenomenon you're interested in fairly recently, so that they have fresh things from memory to tell you. Another tip that I learned from Author into young is no words of your own, and this means that you should never introduce specific vocabulary in your questions. Instead, let domain specific words and technical jargon always be introduced by the respondent. You need to be comfortable being the naive beginner in these situations. I've been doing a lot of work in the health care sector and started to pick up a lot of special words. And early in my career, I viewed that knowledge as something that would allow me to become better and more efficient researcher because I could cut to the chase faster, so to speak. However, this was shooting myself in the foot because when I speak like a professional to the doctors and nurses in this domain, they assume I know more than I do, and they assume and think. I already understand their perspective and speak less deeply about that. So there's so much power in hearing people explain their situation, reasoning behaviors and experiences from scratch. Avoiding words that have not been introduced by the introduce participant and asking open questions about specific anecdotes will elevate your interviewing game a lot. If you're just taking one thing away from this course, those would be it. So to summarize, here are the rules for no narcissistic interviewers. Listen, and let the participant do the talking. Be interesting anecdotes and the participants immediate experience, not generalizing. Don't introduce new words or a specific vocabulary and have a flexible plan off open ended questions. No, yes, and real questions. So how do we plan our flexible interview guide? Let's talk about that in the next lesson. 4. Planning your interview: planning your research is critical. A lot of times you're fighting an uphill battle here because people around you and your team and in your organization, uh, want to get the results of your research fast and cheap. And product managers, party leaders and CEOs will try to cut corners all the time due to resource and time issues . So it's useful to have a grasp on how much time and energy qualitative research like this actually takes. I would say that the usual timeframe for classic research approach would be 69 weeks. You will at some point get pushback from the organization, and people will question that amount of time that you're asking for. So if so, and their argument usually is, we already know this. OK, but if that's so, how come we still run into problems of adoption or on boarding, or don't see any evidence of grape juice experiences You will need to sharpen your line of argumentation for taking the time to carry out high quality research. The other thing, they often say, is like, Why can't we just build something, release it early and modify from there? And this is in general a valid point agile is based on that reasoning. So in that case, instead of battling the whole approach, tried to introduce qualitative research into the design sprints and prove your value there . And in time you might get more time. And resource is to do more deep research. If you want, you can search for our oi on user research or our ally on user experience to get tips and information on how to argue for resource is necessary are y stands for return on investment , by the way. So basically planning takes 2 to 3 weeks actually interviewing about the same, and you can probably get your analysis done in 2 to 3 weeks as well. Of course, these figures are rough estimates, and it depends on the kind of project you're working on. The first thing you need to do in the planning face is to set the scope of the interview and identify objectives you want to make sure you cover the topics and that you have prepared but also want to allow time for exploration and keep the conversation flowing. Start by reviewing the goals of the service or product that you're interested in, even if It's just a conceptual idea at this point. What is the products intended? Purpose. What do other stakeholders, such as leaders in your organization or product managers want to get out of the product? And what advantages and difficulties do you and your team C. Currently to know this? You should have a talk with domain experts and stakeholders before you set up your end user interviews like we talked about before. If there are other research efforts, such as market research or older user research already done if that's available, make sure you looked at those and build your research complement. Those efforts also bear in mind that you can change the scope as you learn more. This is the beauty of qualitative studies. Like I said before, I count on changing the questions between interviews as I progress my own understanding of the topic. Depending on what the answers to those questions are, you will not also get a clue toe what kinds of users who might be interested in initially remember, we don't only want the average. We also want a few extreme users. For example, if you're working in the travel domain, make sure you interview users with special needs, such as parents with strollers, and travel with small Children where people will accessibility needs. And make sure you talk to people that commute every day, as well as tourists who have never even been to this country before. So now you're ready to list interview prompts. These can be formulated as questions, but should be considered Trump's or conversation starters, since each interview is a unique and we'll follow different patterns. Remember, your job is to listen and learn. Another way of looking at an insight into view is that it is a tool for you to deliberately identify your own biases and beliefs, so you need to be able to check your on own understanding of the problem at the door and start from scratch, so to speak. My interview guides are usually in the form of bullet points of themes. This reminds me, just slipped the topics into the conversation when they're when a team seems to lose pace. I either move on to the next topic on the list or try to reformulate the question to get more input. So, for example, is simple. OK, please tell me more about that or okay. And how does that make you feel? Can open up the conversation around that theme again. The next important and sometimes underestimated step is to think about recruiting. You can do this yourself, but make sure you allow for this in the budget so that all your time doesn't go into recruiting because it can take some time. Or you can do this by using 1/3 party recruiting service. Make sure your user profile is distinct and not only based on demographics, though. Remember in lesson to when we talked about inside driven research and the importance of going beyond simple demographics and focus instead on goals and needs and extreme users. In a sense, for this purpose, you need variety and extreme users, domain experts as well as beginners. Instead of only the average long good strategy is to first interview domain experts, and this could be steak orders that are not actually end users but actually work for the company, for example, and let those interviews be part of your work with the Interview guide for the end. Users try to plan for a 45 minute interview, sometimes a little bit longer, but my experience tells me that 45 minutes is good, 60 minutes tops for most remains and 20 minutes is too short. Why is 60 minutes tops? Well, because of practical reasons, if you're recruiting professionals, one hour is easier to set aside Then, too. So let's move on to the content of a great interview guide. 5. The interview guide: Okay, so you have an hour at your disposal with your participant. Use that time wisely. So here, with some things that I used in my guides an introduction. And sometimes it's useful to have your greeting phrase written down that allows you to get started efficiently and make sure you don't forget anything. You can also know down other useful information and reminders. Here, for example, my name is Pontus and I'm with Company X. Our goal is to learn about train travels. This conversation is anonymous, ized and confidential, and this is my assistant who will help listening in and recording this interview. We will send you a gift card after the interview. Is this email address correct? Great. The interview will take approximately one hour. Do we have your permission to record the next part of the guide is to get a nice start to the conversation. Often this can be done as a way to get to know the background of the participant. Try to design an easy softball prompt that has to do with the topic at hand, but at the same time builds some report empathy with your respondent after that is the actual body off the interview. And like I said, usually I make a list of bullet points. Then I can improvise with within those boundaries. At the end of the interview, I tried to make the conversation to be about future perspectives, for example, by using some simple what if questions The last five minutes or so I want to wrap up. Just like the introduction. It can be good to actually write down the wrap up, for example. Okay, thank you so much for taking the time your gift card should arrive to the email address you provided. If you haven't received it within a week, please contact me on email or phone. Also, if the participants are required to sign a non disclosure agreement or nd a and like if you're working on a confidential stuff, for example, don't forget to include those procedures in the script so that you don't forget in making the interview unusable. You can find a template for this in the resource is, please feel free to use this or modify it as you see fit. So now it's time for you to practice setting up an interview guide. So let's move on to the class project 6. Project: Set up an interview guide: the project for this class is to set up an interview guide and to get you started. I have an idea for an example, case. But if you want to start off with your own ideas, please feel free to do so. Okay, So the case I have in mind is a mobile app for train travel. And depending on where you are in the world, train travel might be perceived differently. Here in Sweden and most of Western Europe, train is one of the one hand and on environmentally friendly way of traveling that behaved , want to encourage, and the railroad infrastructure is pretty well developed. But for international train travel within Europe, there are currently a lack of unified digital services to each individual country has their own APS and ticket systems, and it's not nearly as easy to buy an international train ticket as it is to buy an international flight ticket. So the idea here is to gain insights in how to develop a great international train ticket service. And who knows? Our interviews might give us clues to other modes of transportation that should be included in this service. Start your project by downloading the template, you can either fill it in by hand or use it as a reference to create your own interview guide. You will have to be a little creative, since there is no real stakeholders or organization that have given you this task. But let's say you're working for a startup that wants to make international train travel more accessible and easy to do. And if you want to take an even harder environmental angle, you can try to make the objective of the service to make people switch from flying to taking the train. What would the drivers off behavior change for years to be? That that's what the interview could be about. So when you're done with the interview guide, uploaded as a PdF to the project area so that your classmates and myself can give you feedback, good luck with the projects. And when you're done, move on to the next lesson where I share some tips for succeeding in the field 7. Tips for the field: I hope your project is coming along nicely. As you've understood by now, interviewing is a lot more than just sitting down and having a chat. But even if you've done a lot of planning, there are always things happening that forces you to adapt and improvise. And this lesson. We will go through some tips that can help you get the most out of your interviews in the field. First up confirmed the visit and find the way you can call for confirmation and directions . Visiting large industrial complexes, for example, usually require information about the specific entrance, or sometimes the listed address is not updated or correct. A simple phone call confirming the time and location can save you a lot of trouble and unnecessary travel. So once you're in the right location and you're about to start, there are a couple of things to consider. I recommend you record your interviews to make analysis easier and offload your note taking during the interview. If you record you need permission to do so. Don't forget to ask for this. It's a good idea to jot that down as a reminder in your interview guide. If you're using a ghost. A ghost is an assistant that listens in and take notes so you don't have to make sure you introduce him or her and explain why he or she is there speaking about recording. The easiest thing to do is just to use your smartphone for recording. Usually, the sound quality is good enough, since it just for you to listen to when you're analyzing. I used the up I talk, but there are several absolutely use. Make sure you can set the order quality so that the storage space is enough on your phone. One hour of interviewing time. Tend to take a lot of storage and also make sure your phone is charged. You can also use specialized interview dicta phones that produce high quality sound files. You might be tempted to record a video of your interview if it's OK with the participant. You can, of course, do this. But be aware that this can put a little pressure on the participant and even yourself. So if it's not necessary, maybe just stick to the sound recording. It might be a good idea to take a few photos, though, especially if you're visiting a location on the field and want to make sure you document the context where the people work. For example, just makes make sure you ask for permission to do that. This the photos can be then be part of your analysis and provide a richer context for the situation where the users do the work or tasks. If you're doing your interviews in a generic conference room, however, photos are limited of limited use. The only thing I can think of in this such a situation is that a photo of your respondent might help you remember the conversation later. Okay, so moving on to the actual interview, What if something goes wrong? So there are many things that can go wrong, and that's what makes interviewing both fun and challenging. For example, if your product has an international audience, it's of course, great to do international research. But if you and the participants don't share a common language such as English, you might need a translator, and this would reduce the time available. Since every utterance needs to be repeated. Eso It might be a good thing to plan for that by either prolonging the scheduled interview time or plan for a shorter interview to fit in the available Our Remember that if you are from an English speaking country, you're at an advantage and non native in your speakers like myself will tend to feel a little inferior, since we don't have the same command of the language as you do. A simple way to disarm that situation is to simply say something like, Thanks for agreeing to speak English with me. I wish I spoke your language as well as you speak mine. There might also be cultural differences and subtle nuances in the way different cultures communicate with each other, and that takes time to learn. However, if you have an open mind and a positive and humble attitude, this is most of the time, not a big issue. If you have a local representative, uh, he or she can probably help you with the most basic Er's have different views on whether you should shake hands when you meet or what it's OK to small talk about this era if you feel that the person you're interviewing is really hard to get report with or doesn't give you any useful answers, and you tried approaching the subject from different directions. There is no need to push through. Sometimes it's just better to graciously wrap up a little earlier than you planned. Even if I recommended going for 44 to 5 minutes, there might be cases where you simply don't get enough out of your respondent. And in those cases, just say something like, Well, that's all the questions I had at this time. Is there anything you want to add? If they say no, you can just thank him for their time and rep up is planned and move on to the next interview. But what about the opposite? Well, I've been in situations where the interview is pure gold, but the allocated time is running out. It may be your next respondent is already waiting outside, and you have to wrap up what I usually do that miss say, Well, our time is almost up, but I feel you have a lot of experience and valuable input to give. Would you be interested in scheduling another interview? Okay, one final tip for getting rich in book dare to be silent, depending on your personality, your awkwardness. Fresh hope for silence might be higher low, but Usually it's a good tip to dare to be silent after you've asked your questions, allowed the respondent to gather his or her thoughts on the matter. And don't rush into early to help them in social conversations. We all tend to try to help feeling the silence. But in an interview situation, this can be a little dangerous. Let's say you ask and open into question like, What did you have for lunch today? You notice that the respondent doesn't answer immediately. And as a novice interviewer, you might want to help them by providing suggestions like any particular kind of food you like. Or did you have fast food or sandwich? Maybe this is not great, since your respondent might start working with those alternatives you suggested. Rather than saying, for example, well, today I didn't have any lunch because I was too busy. But usually I have a protein shake. If you're too fast offering alternatives, you might miss that kind of input. So there are a lot of other tips out there, and I suggest you read more in the list of Resource is that I list in the last lesson. But now it's time to mourn to analyzing your interviews 8. Analyzing the results: analyzing interview material can take a lot of time. So in order to be efficient with time of resources, I suggest you probably plan your analysis as well. One useful way of doing this is to categorize the interview data into doing, thinking and feeling utterances, especially if you're planning to do customer journey. Mapping the doing, thinking feeling distinction is very useful. Please check out my customer journey mapping class here in skill share for more information about how to analyze qualitative data in this way, another way to go through your material and you can actually do both. So there's no nothing stopping you from analyzing from different angles and then is to establish tasks in the young has a lot of tips for combing for task in her book Mental Models, which I highly recommend. This is useful since it allows you to distinguish preferences, desires and expectations from actual tasks that your service presumably needs to solve. Tasks can play a great role when you're creating scenarios, and together with this doing, thinking, feeling framework, you can create personas or empathy maps. It just so happens that I also have a course on personas here on skill chair that goes a little bit more into detail. How to do this? So the analysis step can benefit greatly from having, uh, one more set of eyes on it. So if you have a research colleague or assistant researcher, you can do individual analysis on the material and then collaborate to discuss the findings in workshop. It's also great to involve other stakeholders in this process, preferably when you've done a first round of interpretation of the material by presenting your key findings, maybe as a custom journey mapped Onda persona and an empathy map, you can relate them to the objectives you set up when you started planning your research, and then other stakeholders can come in and give their voices on what they learn from your research. Remember, the analysis is supposed to be highly actionable. Therefore, if you can anchor your findings and make the people the actual stakeholders in that process , you have a higher probability to delivering value to both your organization and to your end users. Qualitative analysis, that huge feeling itself and this short course kind of Coverdell. But I hope you find some key aspects to continue to work with and a basic vocabulary to continue searching for information about qualitative interviewing and analysis. So we're almost at the end of the course and in the last lesson will discuss how to improve and where you can learn more. 9. Next steps: So how do you improve as an interviewer and researcher? Well, like I said, in the beginning, you get experienced by practicing. The more you practice, the better you get. And you can practice even if you're not at an assignment. So next time you take a taxi, for example, treat the conversation with the driver as an interview. Maybe practice asking for what questions? Try to really empathize and listen to what the driver has to say. And after every interview, make sure you take some time to reflect and jot down a few learnings. If you can write down three things you learned for each interview you perform, you'll speed up your reflective ability and you're learning greatly. And just like in design, critique is a valuable learning tool. So if you're doing research in pairs where you have a ghost in the room when you interview , ask for feedback from your calling. You can also get inspiration from others. Why not listen to good podcasts or other media? There are TV shows, radio shows and documentaries that contain great professional interviewers. And why not sign up to be responded yourself by being interviewed? You get firsthand experience in how it feels to be interviewed, and this experience will help you be a better interviewer yourself. They're also classes at colleges and universities that you can take, especially those around qualitative methodology, which will go much deeper into theories I've only touched upon in this course. And if you want to read more for yourself, here are some great references on interviewing and use a research. I hope you've enjoyed this course. Good luck with the projects and check out my other courses on customer journey, mapping and personas. See you next time.